Are we in the wrong league?

[tom]

Is the ENL suggestion along the lines of assumption that the Tigers would have the same squad as this year (more or less).

No, I base it on the assumption of having the same budget as we seem to have this season, i.e. one that provides for two imports.

The whole point of being EPL was to create an outlet in Telford for up coming talent from the Titans. We are seeing this coming to fruition now, much to the understandable annoyance of the Titans owners as the forward development depletes their squad. If the main team is ENL then any local talent will simply go elsewhere in order to better themselves. If the main team is ENL then any local talent will simply go elsewhere in order to better themselves

You'd still see this with an ENL1/ENL2 set up as opposed to EPL/ENL1. As for Brits moving on to better things, well if they're good enough then that will happen anyway. Tom Carlon and Adam Brittle are but two examples of local talent who have moved on in order to further their hockey careers and maybe win trophies.

It may be worth talking to the Coventry Blaze for some sort of funding. Seeing as we have a number of 2-way players with them, if the Tigers were to be mothballed for another season, Coventry would lose that service. And it's not as if they haven't got the money, considering they took over the Hull Stingrays last summer.

Good idea in principle but I don't think it would work as their priorities are (understandably) their EIHL team and their own development system through their junior club and their ENL team. Yes, they have taken over Hull this season, but this probably means that they'd be even less likely to fund an EPL team. Even EIHL owners have budgetary limits.

When the players take to this ice this evening I will have the privilege of being able to see one of the best British players of all time - Tony Hand (sorry Alan, not you!) and one of the most exciting young British player currently playing in any league - Scott McKenzie (sorry Alan, still not you), plus a number of junior GB internationals and, in Kristofferson and Huppe, a couple of top class imports.

How cool is that!!

As a counter argument to that, I had the pleasure of seeing a physical 4-4 draw between Sheffield Spartans and Fife Flyers in the Northern League tonight with some great goals and end to end action. There may not have been many star players on the ice but it was a good game. The type of game that would get a newbie hooked. It's no point using big name players from a minority sport to try and get newbies into it, they won't care. The hockey nuts amongst us will want to see the likes of Hand, but people who know nowt about our niche sport won't give a hoot. It's these people we need to get hooked to help the club progress.

Rinkrat - I think that a league with ourselves, Swindon, Sheffield, Bracknell, Invicta, Chelmsford, Romford, etc would be ideal for us because we're all on a similar budgetary level. The bigger EPL clubs and the smaller EIHL clubs plus Fife could then form a second tier league. That would be my ideal setup.

Anyway, I think tonight's result shows that the team we have are brilliant at defying the odds. I just hope that next season we can add to it with a couple more imports and push on and make the playoffs. ENL is an option, but EPL is my prefered option.

My last word on this will be: next season, if we have the budget then EPL. If not, then ENL isn't the end of the world.

[hotlips]

why should the Titans drop a league for?? You have a laugh aint ya Tigers dropping a league!!!! We all knew that it was gonna be a tough season and if anyone thought that we'd be up there biting at Manchester backside for topspot needs to get their heads from up their bottoms! Andy and team have worked darn hard to get the team/club to where it is to day and we can only build on the foundations they have built. Tigers belong in the EPL and not in the ENL. If I had a choice of EPL or ENL game I'd go for the EPL choice. Instead of knocking the club, start putting ya efforts into supporting the boys and making sure that the Tigers are around for another 25 years in the EPL.

[shrek]

You could enter into whatever negotiations you wanted to. Just make it clear that you only represent a small minority of Tigers fans.

The simple fact is that when the Titans tell you to get lost, and that they are staying in ENL1, where they have every right to be, the options left are EPL or ENL2.

In fact, please let me know if you ever intend to tell Titans that you think that they should drop a league to make room for us. It would be worth the 500 mile round trip to be there for the few seconds it would take before Dave Fielders' reaction. I assume there'd be a few seconds of stunned silence and then kaboom.

The Tigers have competed probably above the level at which most reasonable pre-season expectations would have had us. We have taken 3 double figure losses and one of those was 6-11, which isn't exactly a huge beating. We have only been shut-out once, against Bison in our 2nd ever game. We have beaten the Flames and Jets, been within minutes of beating Phoenix twice and have run Bison and MKL close. The only team that in my opinion we haven't done as well against as we should have done is the Steeldogs.

I have spoken to a LOT of Tigers fans this weekend, who have all been mad as hell at the suggestion that we don't belong in the EPL.

All the repeated talk of dropping a league does, is to create uncertainty in the minds of the players, sponsors and fans. Does anyone think that just because the players may not read the forum, that their friends and families don't? Does anyone think that hearing even a small minority of fans say that they think we're not good enough and that we shouldn't be in the EPL will not have an effect on player morale?

We have proven this year that we have the budget for EPL. We have competed probably above the level that the budget for year one should have allowed. As a club we are coming up with ever increasing ways of improving the budget, 100 Club, Valentine shirts etc.

If anyone wants to watch ENL Hockey, that's great, go watch the Titans, I'm sure they'd appreciate the extra support, but stop undermining all of the hard work that people have done to get the Tigers back into EPL Hockey.

The vast majority of Tigers fans are VERY happy at what has been achieved this year and know that a lot of other EPL teams are going to have to adjust their spending in the near future to come closer to ours.

[rinkrat]

Shrek, I started this thread purely to find out what people thought of the Scotty Bowman comment. No other reason. I am not advocating dropping a league as I for one would not watch ENL! I don't believe many fans would want it.

I think the Tigers have competed above the level at which I expected. The double figure loss of 6-11 is not about having a beaten. Scotty Bowman's premise was that you should not be in double figures. So, you could be losing 9-10 and Scotty would still not be amused. I put this out to the Tigers fans purely as a discussion point as to whether people believed it to be correct or not. You have spoken to a LOT of Tigers fans this weekend? You didn't speak to me otherwise I would have told you that you had miss understood my post.!!! I 'm mad as hell at the suggestion that we don't belong in the EPL too!!!.

It really bothers me too that you believe that fans should not voice their opinion like Tiger Tom. It is his opinion and he his entitled to it surely as we are a Trust and therefore a team of the people. Surely, if the fans are not happy with the team for whatever reason they should be able to voice their opinion surely that is the whole point of a forum.

I object strongly to your suggestion that I am in any way trying to undermind all of the hard work that people have done to get the Tigers back into EPL Hockey. I have supported Tigers since 1989 through thick & thin so why would I want to undermine them. It appears that unless you praise the team endlessly then you do not want people to post anything else....hardly a forum!!!

The vast majority of Tigers fans are VERY happy at what has been achieved this year and know that a lot of other EPL teams are going to have to adjust their spending in the near future to come closer to ours.

[shrek]

Everyone has a total right to voice their opinions.

My problem is, when it is explained why a proposal is not viable, ie that we cannot simply drop a league as the Titans already play in that league, that explanation is totally ignored and the proposal is repeated ad infinitum. Not just on this forum, but on The Hockey Forum too.

As I put in my previous post it hurts player morale and it discourages sponsors. I am sorry, but this damages the team. All internet forums are open to be read by anyone, players, families, potential or existing sponsors and I think that there is a difference between voicing an opinion and repeating misinformation which has the potential to do harm to the team that we are all supposed to support.

If I misunderstood your post then you have my apologies.

With regards to double figure scorelines, no-one seemed to object in the old days of the BNL when there were games where the Tigers put 20+ goals past some teams? Were we in the wrong league then?

[backinthegame]

i can remember sticking 30 + goals past deeside on many an occassion

[tigershots]

wrong league, not after this weekend, if you were at the match you would have to agree, if not check the various reports on the game, 1 nill up within a minute.

[tom]

Feb 28, 2011 10:58:27 GMT shrek said:

Everyone has a total right to voice their opinions.

My problem is, when it is explained why a proposal is not viable, ie that we cannot simply drop a league as the Titans already play in that league, that explanation is totally ignored and the proposal is repeated ad infinitum. Not just on this forum, but on The Hockey Forum too.

As I put in my previous post it hurts player morale and it discourages sponsors. I am sorry, but this damages the team. All internet forums are open to be read by anyone, players, families, potential or existing sponsors and I think that there is a difference between voicing an opinion and repeating misinformation which has the potential to do harm to the team that we are all supposed to support.

I know I said I wouldn't post again but I feel I have to step in and defend myself here.

Shrek, it's not a proposal, but an option if the going were to get tough. I've explained how we could go about it, the same way several other teams with independent ENL sides have done it, but clearly we're never going to agree on whether a drop to ENL is viable and I hope the club is never in a position where we have to find out who is right, so I think we should leave it there.

I don't see how anything I've posted could damage the club, I've stated quite clearly both on here and on The Hockey Forum that EPL is my preferred option, and that if we have the budget for it next season then we should 100% go for it. What I have said is that if we don't have enough then ENL is an option and it wouldn't be the end of the world if we did end up there. Please tell me how that statement of my opinion could be concieved as misleading or could affect sponsorship?

If you trawl through the archives of THF and our own forum I think you'll find that I've been very positive about the majority of the on-ice performances by the players this season. They've done an incredible job of running the big boys close and indeed beating them on several occasions. Yes, sometimes I have been critical, but I'm sure the players will be able to take it...that is if they even read the forums, as I know a lot of players at other clubs don't. I'd like to think I'm a fair man and give praise and criticism in appropriate measures when they're due. As I don't recall being against the grain of general opinion on here on any game thread this season I think I'm doing that quite well.

To call my support of the club into question as I think you have is, IMHO, wrong. I may not live in Telford anymore but I still support the team. It would be easier (and cheaper!) for me to switch allegience and support Sheffield Steeldogs, but i haven't. Why? Because Tigers are, and always will be, my team! I have on several occasions attended fundraisers and I've helped organise them more than once. Whenever I'm home I drive my friends up the wall because I refuse to make any plans for going out before 9pm if we're at home, just to make sure I get to see the game. In 5 seasons of following the team I've lost track of how much money I've spent on merchandise and travelling to see the team play away from home. In fact, as a student living off beans on toast and oven chips now, I'd rather not think about it!

[shrek]

Feb 27, 2011 14:11:30 GMT shrek said:

Does anyone think that just because the players may not read the forum, that their friends and families don't? Does anyone think that hearing even a small minority of fans say that they think we're not good enough and that we shouldn't be in the EPL will not have an effect on player morale?

I didn't say that the players read the forum, I asked if people think that they don't find out what is written on here.

I have also not called into question whether or not you support the club or whether you or anyone else actually intend to cause harm to the team. What I have repeatedly asked is that people think before they post comments on forums which are open to be read by anyone, not just members of the Tigers community. Damage can still be done unintentionally.

As to the idea/option/proposal, whatever you want to call it, of dropping to ENL, if this was a one off then I wouldn't mind too much, but you and I both know that this is not the first season that we have had this same argument.

To clarify one final point, I have been a Moderator on this forum from the start and was also a Moderator on the old Official Tigers forum. In all of that time I have never as much as corrected anyones spelling, let alone locked a thread or deleted a post. Instead I prefer to explain, in plain sight, why I think that the post is incorrect, damaging or whatever.

However, if anyone thinks, that I will not stand up for the team that I support whole heartedly, then I am afraid that they will be sorely disappointed.

[topbeats]

I'm not posting anything in regards to a reply on the above thread, only to remind people that what Shrek said about others reading open forums is very true and the potential damage that can be done by people incorrectly interpreting posters (even friends on this forum sometimes misinterpret what each others say sometimes...)

At the tail end of the Tigers under Dave & Rach I had 2 new sponsors lined up for, hopefully, any new regime. They had explained to them our (at the time) current position and were happy to offer their financial support to any new owner that took over the team in the summer.

A malicious rumour was started - with the sole intention to damage the Tigers - that the previous team administration owed the tax man thousands and that the bailiffs had been in to the rink and taken all the team equipment.

I was immediately able to quash that rumour as the person who had been and took the equipment was me, moving it in to safe storage at the Space Place. Despite the fact that I posted this on the forum to let everybody know it was rubbish and just malicious, certain users continued to post about the same topic demanding an answer from Dave & Rach, ignoring the fact that I had confirmed it was me emptying the Tigers equipment room.

They laboured the point over and over about the team suffering financial problems.

The two companies I had lined up both read the thread, I then received phone calls and e-mails from each about the 'rumours' and how their was 'no smoke without fire' and our hostile supporters and each new company withdrew their support.

As I am sure you are now aware, categorically there was no problem and it was all rubbish - just as I said it was, but by the fact that people were happy to jump on a juicy rumour and really exploit the negative side of a malicious story it cost our team 2 new sponsors.

I personally encourage open debate, and as a moderator on the old forum the only time I moderated was spelling or abusive language - that said I would ask anybody posting on any forum to read their own message 2-3 times before hitting the 'reply' button.

- Firstly to make sure they have clearly communicated what they want to say (and spelled it correctly)

- Secondly from the perspective of a fellow fan trying to interpret the message

- Thirdly from the point of view of any organisation that supports or may want to support the Tigers and wants to be associated with its fans.

If the message ticks the 'OK' box an all 3 accounts then press post, if not then please have a think about the content you use.

The Internet is a very powerful tool and can be used for good or bad. Tigers have felt the good when both Eurologix pulled out and when setting up the trust, equally we have felt the bad by losing sponsors in the gap year.

Lots of businesses will research our team and our fans using our website and forum before making any decision on supporting us, so please ensure we show them we are united, whilst being able to have open and healthy constructive debates (very similar to this thread)

[tom]

Shrek - That may be the case re players finding out what's been written on here. However, like I said, I wouldn't have thought that criticism would bother them too much. It may even spur them on to prove posters wrong.

I know it's not the first time we've had the ENL discussion, but I always think it's an option if things do get too tough in the EPL. Like I said, let's leave it and agree to disagree.

I apologise if I've misinterpreted your comment about support of the team.

[mrc]

Players do read the forums players do get upset players do discuss whats on here (this is how Chinese whispers start)
so imagine what this pathetic topic idea does to future sponsors/players imo this thread should have been deleted after the second it was posted, There is no way the Tigers would drop to the ENL because they WOULD have to play in Div2 and would almost definitely not be able to attract the sort of player to get promotion when there is already an ENL 1 team, I am not getting into any argument i just think the idea or even the thought of the idea is so PATHETIC end off my rant ;D

[tfprpm1]

Tom, you assured us all 2 posts ago you wouldn't be posting on this subject anymore. How I wish you would prove yourself to be a man of your word as your negativity is a tad boring to say the least.

[tfprpm1]

- Firstly to make sure they have clearly communicated what they want to say (and spelled it correctly)

(and SPELT it correctly)

[tom]

Mar 2, 2011 8:41:24 GMT tfprpm1 said:

Tom, you assured us all 2 posts ago you wouldn't be posting on this subject anymore. How I wish you would prove yourself to be a man of your word as your negativity is a tad boring to say the least.

I give up. I fail to see how ANYTHING I've said is negative...I'm all for having more options for the club, and if[/u] (which is the key word most people on here seem to be missing) the club were unable to raise the budget needed for EPL, ENL is an option. I've said I'd prefer EPL, I've said if the club can afford it we should 100% stay in the league, I've said I expect we will be back at this level next year...what more do you want me to say? That we're gonna complete a clean sweep of the league, cup and playoffs next season?

Maybe you should try reading what others post next time instead of trying to score petty points against them...